The Great Panasonic vs. Sony DV Tape debate excerpted from the rec.video.production newsgroup (you can find the original postings at www.dejanews.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Head life scandal on Sony DV camcorders? Posted to rec.video.production on Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:56:07 I just gotten through reading an article in the November issue of Computer Video magazine that's got me worried. It's stated that Sony camcorders have estimated head lives of between 50-60 hours. Is this true? Because if it is then then situation is ludicrous. I was gonna buy a TRV900 but I'm not prepared to spend around $2000 if it's only gonna last me 50 hours (that's about $40 an hour if you think about it.) It's also stated that Sony makes you pay for the repairs once the heads die out(at least for the workmanship anyway.) In the same article it's stated that the NV-DX100 from Panasonic has a head life of 1000 hours. If this is true then that's the camcorder I'm gonna buy (I've seen it in action and the little critter produces really nice footage.) I'd appreciate your feedback on this -- especially from people who've been using Sony DV camcorders. aral ------------------ I have a Sony VX-1000 with well over one hundred hours on the heads. I've friends with triple that. Nobody I've met has ever had head problems with DV devices, other than issues of routine cleaning. The Sony facility I frequent has never been asked to replace heads on a DV device. I don't know what the head life is, but I'm willing to listen to the Sony engineer that told me that the contact-pressure between the head & tape in DV is much lower than that in Hi8 ... draw your own conclusions. If the magazine you're referring to is Camcorder & Computer Video, I wouldn't put any stock in the story. That magazine is rife with inaccuracies, inconsistencies & bizarre conclusions. Witness the Steve Bress fiasco of April this year ... RGBaker ------------- The magazine's just called "Computer Video"... it's a British mag. You can check out their website at http://www.computervideo.net aral ------------- We have a DX1000 thats done between 100 and 200 hours so far (including playback time). So far its performed beautifully. We took early advice about not mixing tape brands, it seems that if you mix the use of Sony and Panasonic it creates tape clog problems. Since the performance is the same but Panasoncs prices are keener we use Panasonic all the time. So far so good. Please keep this NG posted with your experiences on this issue. John Lubran -------------- I have 2 Sony X1000s with about 600 hours total on them. I had the heads replaced in both early in their lives ( under 100 hrs.) because I tried to save a buck and ran Panasonic DV tape. The heads were not worn, but clogged beyond repair by the Panasonic tape goo. I have used Sony tape since and have not had any head problems. The head Sony Tech came out from the back to warn me about Panasonic tape the first time I brought one of the VX1000s in for an unrelated problem. I thought he was bull s... me so I continued to use Panasonic tape. And disaster followed times 2. He was able to tell that I was using Panasonic tape by the black goo deposited all over the entire tape path inside the cam without ever asking . I had never even seen this guy before and never told them what tape I was using. and, no, I don't run my equipment or tapes thru the dishwasher. By the way, this is the only Sony facility that does serious work on the VX1000 (Sony Service Center, Boston, MA) >Can you give a date as to when this happened? 1st service june 1996, head - May 1997 Cam #1, head - cam#2 June 1997 Andys cam -------------- The article wrote about the one guy having this problem, yes, that is worrisome, and feedback by other users was asked for, but I feel the jury is still out on this one. Generalizing this seems a bit unfair for the time being. mdb -------------- The jury has been in on this for almost 2 years. This problem came for me and many others as early as 1996. The Sony Boston Service Center has replaced a large number of heads in digital camcorders because of Panasonic tape use. They are the only Sony facility that does full Digital Cam service, so units from all the other centers are sent there for major work. I hear (unconfirmed for liability reasons) that Panasonic changed the tape formulation to correct the problem. I would love to find an official document on the subject as myself and a large number of others would love to get reimbursed by Panasonic for the head replacement cost. Andys cam -------------- The Service Manual for my Sony DV gear says the heads will need replacing at 1500 hours. I guess it goes without saying that they assume you will use Sony tape exclusively. I've only ever used Sony DVCAM tapes so that they will have no excuses! Malcolm ----------- I don't believe it is true. Put it with the plastic lens myth. I have used well over a hundred hours on most of my cameras and not one head has gone yet. Just on the most recent project I filmed (over the past three weeks) I used 30 hours of tape. Gary ----------- We have a DX1000 thats done between 100 and 200 hours so far (including playback time). So far its performed beautifully. We took early advice about not mixing tape brands, it seems that if you mix the use of Sony and Panasonic it creates tape clog problems. Since the performance is the same but Panasoncs prices are keener we use Panasonic all the time. So far so good. Please keep this NG posted with your experiences on this issue. John Lubran ----------- The BBC here in the UK use Sony DX1000 for some of their 'fly on the wall' documentaries and they have a corporate policy of keeping the machines for 50 hours and then replacing. This is perhapd overkill, but this was what was the report in a recent article I have read. gplatt.demon.co.uk ----------- I've been mixing Panasonic and Sony DV tape on a DHR-1000 with no problems so far. It is worth noting that all tape stock is 1998 production. No 1997 or older production tape. I am about to try some Fuji and Maxell MiniDV tape. palomaki -------- Took our VX1000 as a second camera on a demanding shoot through 26 of your states last year. We had just bought the camera a few days before flying. Took plenty of Panasonic tapes but could not find a head cleaner. Now we are pretty experienced with Hi8 and knew that unlike other formats the best way to keep those pesky little heads clear was to run 10 esconds of head cleaner about every six hours. Got a bit worried that these little DV heads may be the same. Kept looking for a head cleaner as we traveled. Started in the bottom left hand corner in Atlanta and worked our way round, more or less, anti clockwise. Shot about twenty tapes before reaching LA and a shop that had a cleaner. Opened the wrapper of that cleaner just last week, didn't have a problem with the picture but thought after over 100 hours of use a ten second burst would be a good idea. I'm a bit wary of sticking our little chamois tipped sticks into the mechanism, its all so tiny and fragile looking and the access is awkward. But, so far so good. John Lubran ---------- <> Yes,indeed. Somewhere's around $20, I have one, bought from Sony directly, just to have on hand. I had no other reason to buy it and I haven't had to use it yet! Two years! bannetts ----------- I bought my VX-1000 early in 1997. I was told by Berger Brothers DO NOT use any other tape but Sony, "...regardless if you buy them from us or not.". Since then I've talked to 2 pro shooters of the VX-1000 who have direct connections to Sony back in Japan. Both told me to only use Sony tapes because the Panasonics will clog the heads. That's good enough for me! Cheers, Bill Powers ------------ As it's been widely reported that there are problems with the heads on the VX1000 - my local rep confirmed the fault - it is interrupting that Panasonic are now to blame for supplying bad tape stock ! How come there have been no reports of problems with Panasonic cameras ? KMH ------------ >I have a JVC GR-DV1 and I would agree that the tape can only be >trusted for a few passes. I would dissagree, I have VX1000s and DHR 1000 and have made at least 20 passes on dozens of tapes with no wear showing. Andys cam ----------- |I have VHS tapes that are about 19 years old now. They play fine, the main |limitations being the quality of the video signal source of that long gone |day. The only problem I've seen is some leader breakage where it is attached |to the hub. Tthese were RCA brand VHS tapes that sold fro baout $20 each for |a T120 in 1979). After how many rentals do the video rental outfits (e.g., |Blockbuster) retire a tape? I have tapes that I've had for over seventeen years, including movies that I had as part of my video store inventory. Example: Disney's Dumbo was rented out over five hundred times whilst part of the store stock, and has now sat on the shelf at home as a staple in the kids library for the last nine years ... still plays just fine. And if my kids are at all indicative, one rental probably means three or four plays ... Similarly, the movie Stripes was rented out many hundreds of times and still plays without fault. In the eight years I operated a video store (1981-1989), tapes broke - but new ones were as likely to break as old ones. I don't recall ever throwing a tape away because it was 'worn out'. I treat my personal home videos with more respect than I do the movies, but my experience is that VHS tapes are generally rugged, and the 'years of serviceability' numbers posted by manufacturers are very conservative. Cheers, GB -------- A while back, Jan Crittenin Sherfy (hope I spelled your name right Jan) who is a representative from Panasonic explained the whole issue. Sony and Panasonic use different LUBRICANTS in their tape formulations. It is the interaction of the residual lubricants (when you mix stocks) that supposidly cause the problems (gunk in tape path) She said Panasonic always throughly cleans the decks anytime they have to play (or record) with a different brand than the deck (or camera) had been using. This make perfect sense, but having reported this, I must also mention that before I knew this, I switched between Panasonic and Sony DV tape in my VX-1000 many time without problems. I am however now noticing occational blocky artifacts on old archive tapes I stick in the camera (pretty much without regard to any particular brand) Maybe it's time to clean the heads. By the way, this headlife thread is B.S. I've easily shot over 100 hrs. on our first VX-1000. Eric Tausch, Editech ----------------- John, just purchased the TRV900 but wasn't able to get Sony tape. Since I had to buy Panasonic tape, I sent Panasonic tech support some questions you brought up about compatibility of the two manufactures. Thought you'd appreciate the Panasonic viewpoint. "You have the problem correct, but the participants are wrong! About 1 year ago our factory informed us of a problem they referred to as a "brown smear stain." The problem was related to tape lubricants, but specifically to those that Sony used. Panasonic's formulation is identical to all other tape manufacturers, so the problem occurred when Sony tape was used in a deck that previously used non-Sony tape. During that time you may remember a shortage of Sony DV tape, whereby it was pulled from the shelves by Sony. The spin was that they could not produce enough tape to meet the US demands. At the same time the Internet was alive with reports that Sony had announced the problem in Japan. We know this to be true as Sony approached Matsushita for assistance in attacking this situation. About 60 days later Sony came out with "new improved formulation" and there was as much tape as you wanted! Today, this problem is virtually unheard of. Unless you have old tape stock I would not worry!" Could this do any permanent tape head damage? Should I be concerned, mixing brands? FOR SURE! The stain it left was like a baked on oxide that would at least require a very aggressive head cleaning, and often new heads. Panasonic tech support Bill in New Jersey -------------------------- From: "M. Glen Muse" (GMuse at email msn com) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:32:16 -0500 I am a professional video producer and I've been to your TRV900 site several times, before and after purchasing one of the cameras myself. It is an outstanding, in-depth site for users. I would like to share a couple of things that could be of value to your readers. First, in one spot in your site you discuss the differences (or lack thereof) between Sony and Panasonic miniDV cassettes. I have been told by our videotape supplier (for miniDV, S-VHS, BetacamSP, and VHS tape) that there is a physical difference between the tape in Sony and Panasonic cassettes. This difference has to do with, "wet or dry manufacturing process." The Sony miniDV cassette is manufactured "wet". The Panasonic tape is made using the "dry" process. Either tape works fine, However, the Panasonic tape affects the performance of the video head on tape manufactured using the "wet" process. Machines that play the Panasonic tapes will, in time, become unable to play the Sony tapes correctly. Yes, it does sound ridiculous, but there was a similar problem with Betacam SP tape manufactured by 3M. We used the 3M Betacam SP tapes at work for three years. When 3M discontinued the tape we switched to Sony. Almost immediately we had to have the head replaced on our deck (a $5000 job). --------------------------------------------------- Subject: Manufacturers of MiniDV tapes Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:54:45 EDT From: "K Shieh" (ktster at hotmail com) The Protape salesrep informed me today: There are only two miniDV tape OEMs: SONY and Panasonic. They have the only miniDV tape factories. Fuji, Maxell, JVC, TDK are really re-branded Panasonic tapes. (He also reminded me about the problem some have had with switching between Panasonic and Sony DV tapes. So if you use Panasonic, you can currently choose the above brands since Panasonic is the OEM. I have only used Panasonic-brand and the only tape problem I've had is 1 crinkled tape (at the end of the tape) out of 40 recorded tapes.) Panasonic 60min miniDV tapes are $7.49 at B+H when 10+ tapes are purchased. K. Shieh --------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [TRV900] tape recommendations To: trv900@onelist.com Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:03:52 EST From: (Terry2Simp at aol com) I think the safest thing is to pick one and stick with it. Don't mix Sony & Panasonic. I have used (almost) exclusively Panasonic DVC60ME's and now AY-DVM63EB's (B& H substituted last time I ordered). I have run maybe 100 tapes through my own TRV-900 and have cleaned the heads only 4-5 times. I also use the camera to download-upload-NTSC playback with my MotoDV NLE. I also oversaw a video program with 2 Canon XL-1's and 2 other TRV-900's. We pumped roughly 100 Pana tapes combined thru those cameras in 4 months. One of the TRV's had to go into the shop for a bench cleaning after 95 days of use (dam' error message cost us $220 US for SONY'S "flat rate" service--camera came back from the shop saying it only needed "cleaning" which should have been about $60 anywhere else). This camera had also had the mysterious "tape jam" alluded to here at length on 2 tapes at the end of the tape. I try not to run all the way to the end anymore. Terry Simpson Seattle NT SP5, MotoDV Studio 2.01/firewire card, Premiere 5.1a PII350 FT440BX motherboard with onboard FastTrak, 2x17.2gb Maxtor HD RAID, 10gb Maxtor (C:OS, D:apps, E:data drive), 256mb RAM, SoundBlaster Live!Value, Matrox G100 AGP (not recommended, it's on probation), external USR 56k modem. TRV-900 I've also used 1 of the Maxell's because I had it and needed to shoot. ----------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [TRV900] [Fwd: Fw: JVC vs. Panasonic MiniDV tapes] Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:13:46 -0800 From: Henri Baccouche (henri at 4link net) > Dear Mr. Baccouche, > > Thank you for your question. I've looked into the matter. > > As I mentioned JVC manufactures DV ME tape made by the JVC Media Division > at the Mito media factory in Ibaraki Prefecture, Japan as of last > September. This plant has been manufacturing tape for many years, and > JVC has manufactured tape since the days of open reel audio. > > Speaking from my personal understanding and position regarding ME tape > behaviour and tape use, regardless of the manufacturer, and considering > OEM manufacturing trends in the future, it would be common sense practice > in critical situations to use a head cleaner briefly if one thinks there > is a chance that the tape you are about to use was taken from a different > carton than the previous tape. > > This simple practice should lead to successful ME tape use, prevent > problems of switching brands, and peace of mind at any time as to > wherever the source of the tape. > > All the Best, > > David Gifford > > >>>>><<<<< > Victor Company of Japan Ltd. (JVC), Headquarters www.jvc.co.jp > System Business Promotion Dept. > IPSMD (International Professional Systems Marketing Division) > 12, 3-chome, Moriya-cho, Kanagawa-ku, Yokohama 221-8528, JAPAN > tel: +81-45-450-2310 fax: +81-45-450-2309 nisen: 840-3683 > email: gifford at yh jvc-victor co jp > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henri Baccouche" > To: (DV-L at dvcentral org); (gifford at yh jvc-victor co jp) > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: JVC vs. Panasonic MiniDV tapes > > Thank you for responding, Mr. Gifford. > There have been numerous reports of "lubricant" residue from the "oxide > side" of DV Metal Evaporated tape. On this very list, this issue was > debated at length. Empirical evidence from the the DV membership > indicates that mixing ME tape brands ( Sony-Panasonic-JVC) is not > recommended, as it will lead to increased lubricant residue being > deposited on the tape path which leads to clogged and "plastic > like-coated" video heads and tape tension issues from tape sticking to > parts of the tape transport and being subsequently damaged . > The conclusion was that Metal Particle tape was far more rugged and > reliable. There are no tape mixing issues and the the empirical evidence > is that MP tape is good for hundreds of passes . MP uses an embeded > lubricant layer. > > If JVC actually makes ME tape, perhaps you could illuminate this debate > with the manufacturer's position on the pros and cons of ME and MP > tape. Frankly, what are the big benefits of using ME tape if it has the > lubricant on the face of the tape problem.......? > > Sincerely, > > Henri Baccouche